Maps, Directions, and Place Reviews
Note that WP:BLP is now policy.
Please do not archive this heading, at least for some time. -- Fyslee 21:40, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Blp Insurance Video
Image
I really don't see the benefit of adding the image. It seems rather unnecessary and unprofessional, and also could be taken to presume things about the subject - that the subject is an adult, that the subject can stand up, etc. --Philosophus T 22:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to have a sketch of two naked bodies? Because they are nude, the picture implies that the article might somehow be about human physiology; unless the article is about a porn star, a person's life takes place mostly in the mind, and usually fully clothed. If a picture is necessary at all (is it?), a better picture would be a picture of faces, which connotes more of the person rather than the human body. --Centrx->talk o 23:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The image is gratuitous, and the template is too bulky as it is. Some of these talk pages suffer from an incredible amount of template clutter. --Michael Snow 17:12, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
The size of the image was tolerable, as long as it doesn't inflate the template vertically to a size beyond what the text alone would produce. However, the image chosen turns out to have been not public domain, but a copyrighted stock photo, so it's not allowed. --Michael Snow 00:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I really don't like the handshake image. I didn't notice whatever images were there before, so no opinion about those. Phr (talk) 07:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Proposal
I just added a parameter to {{WPBiography}} where someone can add living=yes and the text of the BLP template appears. What do you think? Incorporates it into a talk template that will be there anyway plus article can now be added to our category of living persons. See Lance Armstrong for an example. plange 01:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
FoN, what is the problem with the formatting? Every time you change it, people complain about image overlap problems. This is the size and format that seemed to fix it. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I put the image in a separate table cell. I don't see how it's possible for it to be overlapping the text. Floating the image within the same cell could cause the last line of the text to appear underneath the image, which should be avoided.
Hmm... I knew internet explorer was bad, but not that bad... Should look okay now. --freak(talk) 20:56, Jul. 31, 2006 (UTC)
Handshake image
I think the current handshake image is rather distracting. I liked the Pioneer image but I'm also fine with no image at all. Haukur 09:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
- It also emphasises that we are white males who like to shake hands. Is that what's intended? I think it's a nonsense graphic added for lack of anything better. A biography has nothing to do with a shaking hands. A handshake isn't a symbol of trustworthiness (albeit, it may be a demonstrator to promote trust by not carrying weapons) -- it's generally a symbol of greeting or agreement.--LeflymanTalk 06:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I put the "two girls" image in, as we are universal in our hatred of the banker's handshake. - brenneman {L} 03:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I can't recall whether my reaction was bcz of some specific article that i saw the little-girls version in, or bcz of seeing it while i was listening to a news report about the Jon-Benet Ramsey suspect's EMails about his admiration for her. In any case, we do have article(s) on him, and other living people for which the little-girls version will be tasteless.
--Jerzyot 05:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand what a b/w picture of two girls has to do with biographies of living persons. I noticed that this picture was taken in 1943. It's unclear who these girls are or if they are still living people. A picture of a long dead pioneer would be equally inappropriate as would the picture of Adam as this is not a theology template. What was wrong with the original icon? (P.S. I found the Lorenzo Lamas picture particularly amusing!) -- Malber (talk o contribs) 13:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Who cares what Jimbo says?
What matters is what the policy is. Why do we need that link to Jimbo's email in the Template? It does not make the policy any more forceful. It is policy. Period. -- 67.116.253.22 09:54, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
More wording issues
The reason I prefer [6] to [7] is that the former seems more inviting and accessible to non-Wikipedians. Saying that you should edit is different from saying that an editor should edit. Consider the use case of people unfamiliar with wikis who come upon a libellous article about themselves. They may take "editor" to mean a traditional managing editor. Going into technicalities about things such as the WP:3RR seems distracting for the same reason. The template prominently links to the policy, it doesn't need to summarize it at length. Haukur 21:30, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Aargh, I should've known that there'd be something like this for a template that changed that much so quickly. I've made some changes to them, hopefully not [irritating] too many people ;D. 68.39.174.238 03:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Excessive templating?
What should one make of anonymous editor 67.121.115.67 dropping this template on what appear to be exclusively articles listed in Category:anti-Semitic people? IP 75.23.154.140 has also done so, but added it onto other controversial figures' talk pages, as well. --LeflymanTalk 08:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
A further refinement?
I occurs to me that it might do us well to distinguish between a regular biography and one where the story deals with ongoing litigation (where the Foundation is not a party, since I assume that WP:OFFICE takes over then). -- 67.119.193.169 00:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Negative Material
Should the template warn only against poorly-sourced negative material, or should it be broader in connotation? Is positive information to be accepted more leniently? That seems like bad policy to me. --Eyrian 00:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Any article
I propose a change (shown) to the following sentence in the template:
Justification for this change is found in the very beginning of the policy's article:
-- Fyslee 18:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Lists of people
In addition to biographical articles, should lists of people use this template? See Lists (stand-alone lists) - Lists of people. Obviously lists of dead people don't count. What about lists where the criteria is complimentary or neutral (lists of Olympic gold medal winners, or Prime Ministers, for example)? Colin°Talk 12:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Transcluding the text?
Was wondering if we could put the text of the template on another page and transclude it into this template and {{WPBiography}}? Currently we're transcluding {{blp}} directly since the language was changing so often, but we're getting complaints that our template is too big. I'd like to go back to the version our bio tag had a couple of days ago where it was prominently on top, but nice and compact. Is this cool? I can make the page with the text, just let me know plange 00:57, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
WPBiography
- I've added the template (noinclude) to Category:WikiProject Biography to aid with navigation for editors who are interested in Biography. I hope this isn't controversial and that we can agree that WikiProject Biography should be the central meeting point for such issues, but if you don't agree please revert and/or discuss.
- I've also added a note that {{WPBiography}} is generally the preferred template, because it displays the same message as {{Blp}} and then some. The note might need a little copyediting.
--kingboyk 12:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Wording, revisited
Starting a new thread as I can't find where this was last discussed.
As you've probably noticed, I've been tagging living persons biographies with {{WPBiography}}, which includes the warning message from this template. Until I added a FAQ about it, I was getting at least one message a day from concerned editors who thought that the message meant there was something wrong with their article. Might the warning be reworded, to make it clear that it's a statement of general policy and not necessarily indicative of problems in the article to which the notice is attached? --kingboyk 13:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Protect {{Blp/BLPtext}}?
Since the text is now transcluded into well over 100,000 talk pages, and I can't see any reason why non-admins should need to edit it, should it be protected or at least semi-protected? Any changes ought to be discussed here first, and there are plenty of admins about who can update the text (myself included). Note that I propose protecting only {{Blp/BLPtext}} and not {{Blp}} (which is just formatting, and mostly superceded by {{WPBiography}}). --kingboyk 18:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Even if there are only a few edits, it's still a high risk template, and aren't high risk templates generally protected? Hbdragon88 22:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Must Be Unsourced Materials Removed?
The current text of the template says unsourced materials must be removed immediately. Several times I included some materials which I knew from personal contact or some now unavailable source. Sometimes I also found it in reliable source, which is however surely temporary and unsuitable for citing. No information of this kind were negative, but without them the articles would be stubs at last.
I understand the policy of avoiding extensive use of unsourced materials, but I would be rather against demanding their immediate removal if they are not controversial - rather they should be marked with the "citation needed" note. Okino 15:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Libelous / Libellous
The correct spelling is "Libelous", with one "L". The rule is that the final consonant should be doubled, only if when pronounced, the accent is on the final syllable. With "Libel", the accent is on the first syllable, so the final consonant should not be doubled. This also makes it consistent with the spelling at Slander and libel, Webster's dictionary, and is the most common usage on Wikipedia [8]. There seems to be some indication that "libellous" is a valid UK spelling, but the single "L" version outnumbers it, 10 to 1. --Elonka 20:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
"Libellous" (670,000 hits) is by far the least common spelling. "Libelous" would be better (3,450,000 hits). It is also the spelling used in the article itself. Since Wikipedia has such a great impact on knowledge and spelling, we should attempt to make sure we do things in the best, and in this case the most common, manner. Erroneous (or less preferable) spellings or misleading expressions should be corrected and pointed out throughout Wikipedia, not treated as if they are inconsequential. -- Fyslee 12:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Edit protected
{{editprotected}} The current wording could do for a slight tweak:
Current wording:
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy as it directly concerns one or more living people. Unsourced or poorly sourced, potentially libellous material must be removed immediately. The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals.
Tweaked wording:
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy as content in it directly concerns one or more living people. Unsourced or poorly sourced, potentially libellous material must be removed immediately. The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals.
Frequently an article may not be directly about an individual but certainly have content about the individual (see Islamophobia). Thanks. (->Netscott) 11:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Noticeboard addition?
It would be good to add the noticeboard to the template to give editors a place to turn to in the event that problems arise. Like so:
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy as content in it directly concerns one or more living people. Unsourced or poorly sourced, potentially libellous material must be removed immediately. The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. Concerns relative to this policy can be addressed on the biographies noticeboard.
(->Netscott) 18:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Let's try a different approach. This seems like a reasonable enough addition, albeit one that will add to the length of the notice. Anybody have any objections to it's addition? --kingboyk 12:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Another addition
<noinclude> {{protected template}} </noinclude>
- This should go at the head of the protected template. (->Netscott) 22:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Commas affect meaning
My abiding opposition to BLP and the concomitant template notwithstanding, it occurs to me that the comma that follows poorly sourced ought to be removed; insofar as the sourcing qualifier is restrictive, it ought not to be set off (to be sure, the formulation absent a comma seems unwieldly, but it is quite right to say Unsourced or poorly sourced potentially libellous material). Do others concur? Joe 03:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it does, and that was my point, as explained above. I believe the sentence contains two elements that should be dealt with independently, even though related:
- Poor sourcing
- Potentially libelous content
Here's the current history of this sentence:
Was:
- "Unsourced or poorly sourced, potentially libellous material ..."
Now:
- "Unsourced or poorly sourced potentially libellous material ..."
My suggestion:
- "Unsourced or poorly sourced, and especially potentially libellous, material ...."
I believe that all libelous material, whether potential or not, should be kept out of Wikipedia, unless extremely well-sourced with the highest quality sources available. If such sources can be found, then it has already been proven to be true and it isn't libelous anymore, but is proven fact, which just makes it very negative material that can be included. Until a court or reliable third party source makes that decision, it's original research and an editor pushing a libelous opinion designed to damage the subject involved, which is very unwikipedian, but is a common occurrence here.
I believe this position is in keeping with the spirit embodied in this Jimbo Wales' quote:
- "Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia."
We simply need to place more emphasis on keeping potentially libelous material out of Wikipedia, and we can do that by strategically placing the comma. -- Fyslee 12:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
BLP needs to include definition of libel up front
Right now clicking on the word "libellous" takes you to the rather thorough article on libel. Someone who is just adding stuff isn't going to take the time to look up the definition there. I propose that a brief one-line definition of libel be added to the BLP. Something like "Libel: an untrue or unproven statement that may cause defamation of an individual" or something like that (the wording would have to be worked on, or perhaps lifted from the libel article). I just think asking editors to go off-page might be a bit less efficient than simply stating out right that this is what we mean by libel. Just a thought. Otherwise I think it's a good idea, although still open to interpretation in terms of what constitutes a "poor source". 23skidoo 06:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Bio templates take up too much space
Moved to Template talk:WPBiography. --kingboyk 15:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Image change
Could we discuss and see other editors comments before changing the image? We now had hands, girls, David Hasselhoff?? Deng Xiaoping and now Robert DeNiro. Garion96 (talk) 15:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I too don't like the "two girls" image. Both for technical and aesthetic reasons. The technical reasons is that it looks awful at thumbnail size. Anything that is intentionally going to be used at thumbnail size should be altered to reflect that. At the moment, the picture works well when you se it full size, but at thumbnail size it just looks creepy. The girl on the left looks like she is upset about something, while the girl on the right looks like she has just spotted something. And the hand on the shoulder looks strange as well. This is just a classic case of a picture being used outside of its original context. It quite clearly was never intended to do anything other than illustrate two girls at an inter-racial summer camp (or something).
But I've also been told that I should suggest something to replace it. So I thought an image of a heart would be a good idea (all living people have hearts, right?). The best thing I could find at the moment is Image:Heart1.PNG.
The number and the Xs could be removed, or even replaced with the letters B - L - P? But maybe someone can come up with something better. In any case, I suggest a heart icon is used as the image on this template. Carcharoth 23:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Ooh, I didn't know we had a gallery tag. Anyway, let's put the others suggestion here (not mine), the "Pioneer" image. I like it, but I'm not sure it's appropriate: [removed image to gallery below] Anyone else got any suggestions? --kingboyk 09:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Suggested WP:BLP logos
I suggest using a generic icon (such as a heart icon) that does not depict potentially living people (ie. not the "two girls" picture). This will avoid potential problems that would be embarassing for a project trying to avoid that sort of problem! Also, a generic image avoids accusations of the image representing only certain types of people (children, white, males, western, etc). A heart icon is neutral and suitable for representing living people (all living people have hearts). Carcharoth 22:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
As above, I think the image is causing sufficient bother - and finding a replacement sufficiently difficult - to remove the image altogether until a better one is found. I've removed the image from {{Blp}}. If folks think it looks OK (and I do) I'll remove it from the higher-exposure {{WPBiography}} too. --kingboyk 16:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
If children are too much for some people to take, perhaps a crowd shot such as Image:July 4 crowd at Vienna Metro station.jpg. Gamaliel 17:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- So, obviously biased people like Gamaliel decide now, which objection is legitimate, and which is not? Where Wikipedia has come to? Personal recollections of a Gulag prisoner would be considered "POV," while sunny reports about successes of Stalinism from Pravda are OK, "published source," as long as some self-appointed "editor" in Florida is politically infrared? I agree 100% with what Peter1968 wrote to Gamaliel on Talk: Jack Vance page: "You guys (administrators, super-active Wikipedia addicts, template inventors, bored individuals, etc) seem hell-bent on converting Wikipedia from being an encyclopedia editable and readable by anyone, into some sort of esoteric cross-referenced morass of hypercomplexity. Every day I come to contribute to this admittedly well-intentioned website, there's some new template, some new project, some new policy (usually arcane and for the benefit of the person who quotes it), some new shortcut, some funkified userbar or some such. It's gone beyond a joke. The KISS principle pass you guys by, did it? You do know what you're succeeding at with all these shortcuts, templates and cross-references, don't you? You're turning people off from contributing by purposeful obfuscation." Arvin Sloane 17:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- ??? Which picture do you want? It's a simple issue! --kingboyk 17:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
How about this?
-- Malber (talk o contribs) 18:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I notice that it's a white stick figure. One more example of The Man keeping everybody down. ;) Gamaliel 18:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Osama Bin Laden is alive and an example of someone easy to defame; illustrates BLP is about morality and not about whether we are going to get sued; illustrates this policy is about accuracy and not removing sourced negative information. WAS 4.250 23:35, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
We should not use any photo of any Bin Laden, Bush, or Wales. Usage could increase vandalism. The two girls are still the best proposal in my opinion whether or not they are living does not matter since no one really knows who they are. And with the size of the photo in the template, people could think the "african-american?" girl is a boy but even that does not matter. --HResearcher 22:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
My view would be not to use any image. This template appears on thousands of pages; adding an image just means that on thousands of pages we are pushing the actual content down the screen in order to provide more decoration. Christopher Parham (talk) 02:07, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Any article (again)
I earlier proposed a change to an earlier version of the template, which has since been improved. There is still a matter I'd like to see included in the template because it is confusing to some editors. They claim that it only applies to the article, and I can see their point. Here's the relevant part of the current version:
- "This article must adhere .....Negative material, especially if potentially libelous, must be removed immediately if it is unsourced or poorly sourced."
It does not make it clear that anything other than the article itself is included in the policy. Here is a suggested improvement (old parts in bold):
- This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy as it directly concerns one or more living people. Negative material, especially if potentially libelous, must be removed immediately if it is unsourced or poorly sourced. This applies to all articles and talk pages. The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. Concerns relative to this policy can be addressed on the living persons biographies noticeboard.
Justification for this change is found in the very beginning of the policy's article:
If it has since been determined to apply the rule to private talk space, then that should be included by appropriate wording, such as "everywhere at Wikipedia." It seems to me I read this somewhere, including libelous material in archives. -- Fyslee 20:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest this:
Peter O. (Talk) 09:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
This article directly concerns one or more living people. Negative material about a living person in any article or talk page, especially if potentially libelous, must be removed immediately if it is unsourced or poorly sourced. The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. Concerns relative to this policy can be addressed on the living persons biographies noticeboard.
This article directly concerns one or more living people. In accord with Wikipedia policy, negative material about a living person in any article or talk page, especially if potentially libelous, must be removed immediately if it is unsourced or poorly sourced. The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. Concerns relative to this policy can be addressed on the living persons biographies noticeboard.
"Potentially libelous" is not clear enough. Even a neutral statement composed with other neutral statements in a certain way can be damaging when written with a 'spin'. Anything which is not source or poorly sourced should be removed, that includes negative, neutral, or positive statements. WP:V. --HResearcher 22:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Shorter and simpler
Remember, this is used on thousands of already cluttered talk pages.
--Centrx->talk o 17:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Negative material sentencce
I have rearranged the clauses in the sentence "Negative material, especially if potentially libelous, must be removed immediately if it is unsourced or poorly sourced". The new sentence reads "Negative material that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous". The meaning is the same, but clarifies that it is not negative material per se that is a problem, but unsourced negative material. Also, by moving the reference to libel to the end, we remove the implication that unsourced though non-libelous negativity is somehow tolerable. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bucketsofg (talk o contribs) 21:06, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Policy in a nutshell says it better
I think the text should be changed to the text in the nutshell.WAS 4.250 05:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Removal of 3 revert thing
The living persons biographies noticeboard did not exist when the "three-revert rule does not apply" formulation was created. Now that it does, emphasing taking it there makes sense. WAS 4.250 05:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I must have missed a change in the policy. When the who BLP thing started, I thought it had been determined that 3RR does not apply in the case of removing libel, etc.? If there has been a change, adding some link to a page explaining the actual rule might be helpful. (It's possible the noticeboard contains this information, but most users won't go hunting for it; better to make a direct link to the current rule). 23skidoo 17:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Template for section
Is there a section-specific version of this template? If not I'd like to request that an administrator either create or edit the existing template for use in a section. Thanks, John Reaves 06:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Impact of using template BLP on other than biography articles
WP:BLP applies "to biographical material about living persons in other articles." If use of Template BLP were limited to biographies, then Template BLP would read something like "This biography must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons" or "This article related to living persons must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons" However, template BLP states "This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons" and thus placement of the BLP template is not restricted by topic. {{WPBiography}} has a parameter to {{WPBiography}} where someone can add living=yes and the text of the BLP template appears. In reviewing this (see Talk:Banjee#WP:BLP, I discovered that use of Template BLP on other than biography topics is not expressly part of the BLP guideline templates section, but the overall BLP guideline seems to permit it. However, since every article potentially could include biographical material about living persons, template BLP potentially could be placed on the talk page of every article. On the other end of the issue, restricting template BLP to only article having biography topics makes template BLP useless since {{WPBiography}} already serves that function. The answer may be somewhere in the middle. I think if we have a discussion on the impact of using template BLP, we may be able to derive guidance on using template BLP on other than biography articles. Please place your comments below. -- Jreferee 17:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- ^ Jimmy Wales. "WikiEN-l Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information", May 19, 2006
Source of the article : Wikipedia
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